Once they sell enough to bankroll the R & D for extended magazines, it should be even better (10 is a little weak and I havent tried Redball or Promags, based upon the feedback). I sent mine back to kel-tec for service there customer service stinks in my mind) and once I get it back, till go on the block to trade. In turn, the piece of mind of, say, a Colt Frontier and Winchester 1873 feeding from the same trough likely saved lives. For more information, please see our As mentioned, the M&P FPC is chambered in 9 mm, and it is also optics-ready. This carbine ran like a dream. Who hasnt sauntered into a gun show and caught one of these beauties winking at you? Cheap ammo at the range and +P hollow points for home defense. The M&P FPC is compatible with M&P full-size and compact pistol double-stack magazines, and includes a carrying bag with additional storage and Velcro straps. Hi-Point carbines now illegal in NY | Hi-Point Firearms Forums However, each of these fantastic products has something slightly different to offer, no matter your shooting style. Eight major concealed carry insurance programs are now available to the millions of Americans who carry concealed. These platforms are . Smith & Wessons dropped an absolute bomb today, with the announcement of its latest design-the Smith & Wesson M&P FPC. You left out the Foxtrot Mike FM-9, an affordable and highly competent carbine. It is extremely lightweight at 6.25lbs and 31" overall length. 5) any air rifle, cuz they are not firearms. Save my name and email to use for future comments. -Telescoping 6-position collapsible M-4 style buttstock However, there are a few things that you need to keep in mind if you are thinking about purchasing one of these firearms. The definition of a detachable magazine under state law is any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. This definition is broad, and would likely include many common types of magazines, such as those that are commonly used in rifles and shotguns. MSRP: $949.99; www.palmettostatearmory.com PSAK-V MOEKOV Rifle $949.99 Palmetto State Armory. Stunningly hand-painted along with a Teflon-coated finish, this firearm is visually appealing while still being deadly accurate. and our No items found matching the search criteria, Dark Storm DS-9 MOE Featureless 9mm Rifle Black, Dark Storm DS-9 Typhoon Non-NFA Firearm 9mm Black, Dark Storm DS-9 Typhoon Post Ban (Non-Threaded) 9mm Rifle Black, Dark Storm DS-9 MOE Standard 9mm Rifle Black, Dark Storm DS-9 Typhoon Featureless 9mm Rifle Black, Dark Storm DS-9 MOE Post Ban (Non-Threaded) 9mm Rifle Black, Dark Storm DS-9 Typhoon Standard 9mm Pistol Black, Dark Storm DS-9 MOE Featureless 9mm Rifle Black ODG, Dark Storm DS-9 MOE Featureless 9mm Rifle Black FDE, Dark Storm DS-9 Typhoon Standard 9mm Rifle Black, Dark Storm DS-9 Typhoon Featureless 9mm Rifle ODG, Dark Storm DS-9 Typhoon Featureless 9mm Rifle FDE, Dark Storm DS-9 Typhoon Standard 9mm Rifle FDE, Dark Storm DS-9 MOE Standard 9mm Rifle Black FDE, Dark Storm DS-9 Typhoon Post Ban (Non-Threaded) 9mm Rifle FDE, Dark Storm DS-9 Typhoon Standard 9mm Rifle ODG, Dark Storm DS-9 Non-NFA Firearm MOE 9mm Black, Dark Storm DS-9 Typhoon Non-NFA Firearm 9mm CHB, Dark Storm DS-9 MOE Standard 9mm Rifle Black ODG, Dark Storm DS-9 Typhoon Non-NFA Firearm 9mm FDE, Dark Storm DS-9 Typhoon Post Ban (Non-Threaded) 9mm Rifle CHB, Dark Storm DS-9 MOE Post Ban (Non-Threaded) 9mm Rifle BLK FDE, Dark Storm DS-9 Typhoon Non-NFA Firearm 9mm ODG, Dark Storm DS-9 Typhoon Post Ban (Non-Threaded) 9mm Rifle ODG. Despite its blue-light special price tag, the 995 performs respectably for a utility long-gun that appears designed especially for this role. I dont know if Callico is still selling their unique rotary mag carbines but ours with their iconic 50 or 100 round mags is my wifes PC of choice! I have 50 rounds ready for the range. MSRP: $859.99; PSA Gen4 9mm Rifle $689.99 at Palmetto State Armory. The Just right carbines are illegal as is BUT being as they are built very much same as AR's. If you can change the pistol grip with a AR receiver spur (not sure if can) then assuming it don't have any other illegal features on it like muzzle brake, flash hider, collipsible stock, etc.. then should be legal.. Save Reply Quote PowerSlave Banned Lightweight (5.6 pounds) and slight size (29.5-inch length), really up its potential in CQB. I'd recommend getting one. The included fire control group with the Shockwave is a PSA Enhanced Polished Trigger. . While the JRC is smooth and reliable to shoot, it is harder to disassemble than firearms such as the AR-15. Put a 6.5 Grendel barrel and bolt in, wood furniture, and post to gunnit pls. Are You Looking for More High Quality Rifle Options? Had 4 of them on a department and all jammed with hollow points. $369. Canik SFX Rival-S Steel Frame, 9mm, 5" Barrel, Chrome, O.R, Co-Witness -Utilizes standard M-4/AR-15 furniture and trigger components Despite all the turmoil the company has enduredincluding jettisoning rifles at one pointColt still makes a solid long gun. Couldnt agree more. A clean break along with a fast reset makes every shot feel fantastic when shooting this neat 9mm carbine. Out of a carbine, the 9mm gains modest velocity, is highly suppressible, generates little recoil and is offered in more models. This is particularly true if its paired with a case TNW cooked up for the rifle that stows it and a couple of spare barrels, so you can match the rifle to the ammunition on hand. Something fishy when a $600 American made rifle that has has no bad reviews that I could find. Barrel Length: 16.5 in. Compare. SO given the popularity of th RUGER 57 pistol I feel pretty certain RUGER will likely bring out its PC Carbine in that 5.7 x 28 cartridge as well. Hard to believe The F. O. FX-9 NEVER MADE the list Jason. It is illegal to purchase or possess this firearm if you are a convicted felon. While the finish wont be as amazing as more expensive options, the functionality and performance cant be beaten. ), A very nimble 6.35 pounds unloaded, the 16-inch barreled rifle is generally quick target to target and as manageable as youd expect a pistol-caliber long gun to be. New For 2023: Smith & Wesson M&P FPC The BCG is compatible with most aftermarket fire control groups. I would assume that the same build quality would go into both, but I havent read many comparisons of the two. Some of the strongest weapons in history have been swords, spears, and bows and arrows. You get the best of both worlds with the AR15 platform and ergonomics and the hard hitting 7.62x39 round. Legal in 50 States - Just Right Carbines Cookie Notice MANY MORE (just no threaded barrels, stocks, magwells outside of the grip, or "barrel shrouds", no one sells these in NY anyways). The Windham Weaponry 9mm carbine is a beautifully crafted carbine rifle that offers lightweight, reliable, and simple-to-use performance. Jul 28, 2018 #13 H. holdover.450/400 Nitro Ex. Made in U.S.A. Features include a manual thumb safety, top accessory rail, A2 grip . 9mm carbine | New York Firearms Forum Also included in the BCG are an enhanced firing pin and an external 5.56 extractor. Mags with no more than 10 rounds (Long guns & Pistols) LEO and/or Military Exemption. It has no problems with accuracy, either. New York AR-15 rifle manufacturer legal compliant for NY, CA, CT, MA and NJ. Gain confidence with pistol calibers, then increase as their skills improve. However, there are a few other restrictions that apply to the Hi Point 9mm carbine. A new addition to this list, released in early 2023, the S&W M&P FPC is not yet proven but it does look very promising. are 9mm carbines legal in ny. have glock 42 , hp jams alot , sent back to glock, now no jams fmj but still jams with hp, nose of all hp ammo sticks on ramp ?? This carbine is available in several different calibers and models, including 9mm Standard, 40 S&W standard, .45 ACP (Glock magazine based), and .45 ACP (1911 Magazine Based). You can check out https://andiesweaponsstore.com. Likely this has you covered, no matter what pistol you carry. Whenever possible, it makes sense to invest in firearms that can fill multiple roles instead of just one. Copyright 2022, IsaLegal - All Rights Reserved, Paypal Business Account Without Legal Business Name. Choose from a variety of barrel lengths, furniture configurations, and more to find the right gun for you. BTW, IMHO the HOLOSUN AEMS circle/dot sight I mounted on it is the best carbine red dot for carbines including the best EO-TECH. Accessories : Holster & 2 Magazines. While performance is above average, it can quickly and easily be upgraded if you want something a little more precise. Never again. The one complaint I have is that when gripping the rifle the trigger is just too far away for a comfortable grip, and I have very large hands. The Storm is simple and advanced at the same tick, and is more than up to the most demoing task of a 9mm carbine home defense. No mags over 15 rounds (Long guns & Pistols), No mags over 10 rounds (Long guns & Pistols), Aurora No mags over 15 rounds (Long guns only), Chicago No mags over 12 rounds (Long guns only), Franklin Park No mags over 16 rounds (Long guns only), Oak Park No mags over 10 rounds (Long guns only), Riverdale No mags over 35 rounds (Long guns only), No mags over 10 rounds (Pistols & Rifles) Exception only if customer provides Class A or B permit (Long guns) or Class A permit (Pistols), Dealers license for shipment. It is fed by a detachable magazine, has a thread barrel and a somewhat adjustable stock with spacers. Ill stack it up against any of the ones you listed. The stock features a short magazine well with a reversible release using a push-button design. You never knew when the next wagonload would mosey down the trail, after all. I have one with a few add-ons & an Aimpoint Red Dot and whenever I hit the range, it becomes everyones favorite gun of the day once they try it out. The carbine itself is rated for +P+ 9mm ammunition, so you can run it hot if you so wish. . Adding to the Survival Rifles usefulness, its a takedown. I find this carbine comfortable and accurate with iron sites. Up next in my review of the Best 9mm Carbines, if you work in law enforcement, it makes sense to want a product that is cross-platform compatible. Firing this beauty is fast, accurate, and satisfying, thanks to the inclusion of a PSA Custom Flat Bow Trigger. Even though the price is a little higher, many shooters prefer the bolt remaining open after the final shot of the magazine. On the surface, the Storm has the external appeal of a bad Buck Rogers remake. Quick-change barrels open the blowback semi-auto to a host of chamberings, including .22LR, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 10mm and .357 SIG. The concept of a carbine or rifle that grazes on handgun ammunition is nearly the same vintage as Americas love affair with firearms. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. They are inexpensive as they are constructed using polymers and alloyed metals resulting in a reduction of production costs and sale price. Riverdale - No mags over 35 rounds (Long guns only) Maryland. 115 grain and 124 grain. Please feel free to visit our website https://www.legitarmsdealer.com/. Of the three, only JRC offers a practical California/New York compliant model. 100% American-made parts and assembly. Today, the practicality of pistol-caliber carbines is hotly debated. Constructed in the USA using an American-made Billet 7075-T6 A3 AR upper, it has been hard-coated anodized in black for the ultimate in durability. There is a brass replacement piece that goes on the bolt. -Made in the USA, in New York State, -9 mm Standard, Restricted State (CT, MA, NJ), and California Compliant are 9mm carbines legal in ny - mail.srecipe.org This is the FPC's main virtue; it's very compact overall length for storage. Dark Storm Industries DS-9 AR-9 PCC Style 9mm Modern Sporting Rifles legal and compliant for for New York New Jersey Massachusetts Connecticut and all free states. This makes it one of the most compatible 9mm carbines on the market. I have one and would not trade it for 3 Hi-points, and yes Ive tried the HP. Why are blowback designs used for the 9mm carbine? 10 rd version only Hawaii FFL can convert magazines. Top 10 Best 9mm Carbines in 2023 Reviews - TheGunZone Kel-Tec SUB-2000 9mm rifle (Smith and Wesson Model 59 configuration) $500.00 $419.99; Brand: Kel-Tec; Item No. Intrigued by the new S&W folding 9mm carbine? Probably the most important aspect of any firearm is reliability, and the Faxon Bantam certainly possesses that; in fact, its one of the most reliable 9mm carbines in the market. For even further convenience, its possible to load Glock-style magazines. 1. Privacy Policy. 995TS Hi-Point 9mm Carbine. MSRP: $919; www.tnwfirearms.com TNW Aero Survival $799 at Guns.com. A 17-round magazine is included with the rifle but can easily be upgraded by swapping it out with Glock-style magazines. Your search for the Cake Disposables and Cartridges is over! By highlighting some of the key differences between these products, you can choose which of them best suits your needs. But your statement could hardly be considered a tack driver sorry just cant let that slide. The Sub-16 model a and model b cannot be fired when they fold, so it's not a folding stock, but a collapsible rifle. The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly. JR Carbine NY SAFE Act Compliant Version | New Product My question is whether the new Ruger PC9 9mm carbine is legal in NYS. The stock fiberglass-filled nylon is also on target, upping the guns accuracy potential by providing a rigid platform. You neednt have a high-seas adventure planned to reap the Marines benefits either. The simple blowback outfit proves reliable with most ammunition and is configured such that if you know how to run Eugene Stoners brainchild, you know how to run the carbine. They are definately legal in NYS, don't know about NYC. For rapid controlled and accurate fire, a single-stage EPT (Enhanced Polished Trigger) is fitted to the rifle. That is the best feeding hollow point round Imo. It includes a Picatinny rail for mounting optics and accessories. N. Taylors & Company FS Tactical 1911: Now in 10mm! The M1-9 is chambered for 9mm and is blowback operated. : 9MM1295; Hi Point 995TS 9mm Tactical Carabiner. MSRP: $1,049; Faxon Bantam 9mm $1,049.00 at Faxon Firearms. Length of pull is also something to learn to deal with. Laws and Politics - Firearms/Self Defense/Weapons. But with 32 rounds they keep a lot of fun on tap. Operation is simple blow-back and it feeds from standard M&P 9mm 17- and 23-round magazines. One point to keep in mind. While it holds a unique place in the pantheon of 9mm carbines, the rifle isnt Kalashnikov through in through. All of us had some tight groups and a lot of fun. Laws and application / enforcement of laws can change quickly. Thats why Ive included this helpful buying guide so you can make the most confident choice possible. A carbine is a short rifle, typically firing a smaller caliber cartridge than a standard rifle. You might also enjoy our comprehensive reviews of the Best Surplus Rifles, the Best .338 Lapua Rifles, the Best Lever Action Rifles, the Best Coyote Gun, and the Best Rifles under 500 Dollars currently on the market. This all makes it is one of the most versatile 9mm carbines currently available. One likely to last a lifetime. The Just Right pistol caliber carbine is dressed as an AR-15 with completely ambidextrous operation capabilities. Today, carbines are widely used by law enforcement and military personnel, as well as civilians. Most of these 9mm carbine rifles are based on the AR-platform. What about the Freedom Ordnance FX-9, great running carbine & pistol at a really good price! Honestly, the 9mm carbine has plenty of room to grow, but if youre looking for a solid gun off the shelf it more than ticks off the boxes. Message to any innovators. DSI DS-15 4.5 oz Carbine Buffer H2 $ 24.95. Smith & Wesson's new M&P FPC is an entirely new design from the company, bringing a unique, compact pistol-caliber carbine to the company's lineup. A distinct advantage to 9mm carbines is being able to enjoy the best of both worlds in one package. Its easy to poo-poo the 995 High- point entry in the carbine race. Takedown is super easy. A forward-looking gun, even though its more than a decade old, Beretta engineered a lot of flexibility into the 9mm (.40 S&W and .45 ACP also available). Its possible to choose which side the charging handle is on, along with which side spent shells are expelled from. You can even use a 33-round stick or 50-round drum magazine. To start, the 16-inch barreled, blow-back Bantam has several features youd expect on a more expensive AR-style PCC, including a lightweight 13-inch M-Lok aluminum free-floated handguard and last-round hold open. Yet, quality-made and reliable as a faithful dog, the Standard Carbine proves an excellent value, one most will agree is worth every penny. To others, theyre the ideal economical plinker, wieldy home-defense option and perfect survival tool. If you still cant decide which of these wonderful products will put the biggest smile on your face, then keep reading. However, there is no guarantee that this will happen, so it is best to check with the state police before purchasing a Kriss Vector. It comes in several different color configurations and camo designs (black is the cheapest) However, a glance at the magazine gives notice that something is indeed amiss. This carbine is available in several different calibers and models, including 9mm Standard, 40 S&W standard, .45 ACP (Glock magazine based), and .45 ACP (1911 Magazine Based). The new . With a wide variety of calibers and barrel lengths available, there is a carbine to fit every need. As a semi-automatic 9mm pistol caliber carbine, the TNW Aero Survival is packed with useful features. With the shortened barrel, its important that you can hold the gun stable at all times, and this stock ensures thats always the case. The rounds are then fired by pulling the trigger. Then check out our in-depth reviews of the Best Bullpup Rifles and Shotguns, the Best .308 and .762 Semi-Auto Rifles, the Best Survival Rifles for SHTF, the Best .223 Rifles, and the Best .30-06 Rifles you can buy in 2023. It functions via a simple direct blowback action. 9-round mag (interchangeable with JHP45 handgun) https://cakecartsforsale.odoo.com/. Splitting in two just before the receiver, the 34-inch long-gun nearly shrinks by half. Of course they are - I just purchased one yesterday in Madison County from Franks Shooting Supply in Canastota, NY. and can be detrimental to the carbine itself per HP. : SUB20009SW; Rock River Arms LAR-9 9mm AR-Style Carabiner $1,200.00 $919.99; Brand: Rock River Arms; Item No. Three removable 0.5-inch (12.7-millimeter) spacers are included with the butt. Fx-9 sucks. Charging slide/handle doubles as retainer when folded. The Ny Legal 9mm Carbine is a popular choice for self-defense and home protection. Where this is obvious are the mag-well blocks, pinned into place on a standard lower, making it compatible with the slimmer pistol caliber magazines. However, the Kriss Vector has not been registered in New York, so it is not legal to own in the state. The one I believe performs best in all these areas is the. $1,095.00. Something that many 9mm carbine firearms lack is a bolt hold back feature. Carbines are a versatile and affordable option for shooters of all experience levels. That's all you need. I would avoid the Glock 19 and go for the native 10 Glock 26. 9 mm Semi-Auto Rifles - Sportsman's Outdoor Superstore Going to try and get to Blue mountain tomorrow. Home - Just Right Carbines Get the 76th edition of the World's Greatest Gun Book. In those days, the system made a world of sense. New York legal Hi point carbine m - YouTube MSRP: $315; www.hi-pointfirearms.com Hi-Point 995 $264.99 at Guns.com. Keeping the firearm comfortably against your shoulder is the KAK Industries Shockwave Blade stock. At the business end of the PX9 is a 16-inch (406-millimeter) chrome-moly steel barrel nitride tested for durability. Pricey, yes. Th-th-thats all folks! An AR pistol must have a stock that is either permanently attached or pinned in place. Each has valid points, and maybe youve thought youd like to investigate the matter first-hand to make up your mind. 11 Best 9mm Carbines (Pistol Caliber) 2023 - Ranked by a Marine Who knows, given a chance, you might find the 9mm carbine is what youve been after all these years. They are purpose-built to accept 9mm Glock-style magazines, while the rifle comes with a clear ETS 31-round magazine. Some of the excellent features of this carbine are a California-compliant paddle grip and a 10-round capacity, which allows residents of CA to enjoy the experience of owning a 9mm carbine. He loves writing and sharing his extensive knowledge of firearms, especially AR rifles and tactical equipment. The incredibly lightweight and reliable Magpul MOE stock is included on PSAs Gen 4 EPT model 9mm carbine. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. In fact, for its price, the 16-inch rifle is among the best deals going in a category of pistol-caliber long gun that seems to get more expensive every year. -Free-floating quadrail forend It can even feed and eject a variety of different brands, making loading up and keeping spare magazines on hand a cost-efficient exercise. He is a gun owner and avid reloader from Colorado. 8 Reasons To Invest In A 9 mm Pistol-Caliber Carbine Colt M4 Carbine 7.62x39 CR6762. Hi Point 9Mm Carbine Legal in Ny - Hudson SteelWorks Admittedly, Thureon Defenses 9mm carbine almost doesnt qualify for this list. However, there has been some confusion over whether or not the Kriss Vector is legal in New York. The latter is a bit of an OCD tamer, but if you cant live with a bit of rattle its a godsend. Cookie Notice Keeping with convenience is the inclusion of a 6-position telescoping butt-stock for comfort and stability. Thank you in advance 5 26 26 comments sorted by Best Add a Comment ekgzo 1 yr. ago If you want the basic PC Carbine, model number 19101. Model Series: M&P. Caliber/Gauge: 9mm Luger. I have a gen1, and I have put several thousand rounds through er, with no problems at all. Not available for transfer Exemption type 07 FFL holders or licensees with valid State of New York issued Dealer in Firearms License, NOT ALLOWED TO SELL Must be registered w/California Handgun Registry (No Mag Disconnect & Threaded Barrel), NOT ALLOWED TO SELL Assault Weapons Ban, NOT ALLOWED TO SELL Melting Point Restrictions, Must be registered w/Maryland Handgun Registry, NOT ALLOWED TO SELL Threaded Barrel included in Assault Weapons Ban for Pistols, NOT ALLOWED TO SELL Not listed on CA DOJ Handgun Roster, Not available for transfer Aurora, Cook, Oak Park, Franklin Park, and Riverdale, NOT ALLOWED TO SELL Assault Weapons Ban Exemption type 07 FFL holders or licensees with valid State of New York issued Dealer in Firearms License, NOT ALLOWED TO SELL Aurora, Cook, Oak Park, Franklin Park, and Riverdale. both the wrist rocket and hi-point carbine are illegal in NY. If you want you can tacticool an SKS as long as you keep the original 10 round attached mag and comply with 922r. But more recent weapons, such as guns and bombs, can be much more deadly. Now in its second generation, the SUB-2000 is light as well a mere 4 pounds. 10 rd or less version only. What Ruger PC carbine is legal in NY? Measuring 13-inches (330-millimeters) in length, it covers a large portion of the barrel. The Aero Survival is well-suited for deep-woods camping, bush flying, kayaking, or even for self-defense. Colt has been turning these out for some time, essentially just modifying existing 5.56 AR-15s to fill the role. As expected, the Marine is a blowback-operated carbine, which endows it with an admirable trait as a utility gun it chews through nearly any ammo. The Calguns lawsuit is still moving forward, they need all the support we can give them. Federal, Seller and Bellott, Red Army, REMAN, Winchester, Hornady, and Aguila ammunition. Bumping its head on this article's price ceiling, it starts to stretch the definition of affordable. -Lightweight approximately 6.5 lbs. NY Compliant Pistols | New York Compliant Handguns For Sale Always know your ammunition status thanks to the clear 31-round ETS magazine. It involves removing a number of Allen and Phillips head screws which does make cleaning harder, but not too difficult. The upper is slightly modified with an abbreviated port and large puck-style brass deflector, which also pushes lingering gas away from the shooter. 12g Ammo; 20g Ammo; 410 Ammo; . This 9mm carbine would be well suited for self-defense, target shooting, plinking, or even hunting small game. Like the Gen 4 hybrid BCG (Bolt Carrier Group) constructed from nitride-treated 8620 steel. Owning a rifle with a pistol caliber might seem like a strange prospect for some. The Marlin Camp Carbine was built in 1985 -199 in 9mm and 45 acp. I have one. MSRP: $899; www.beretta.com BERETTA CX4 STORM $599.99 at Palmetto State Armory. Not really that far off. Nice touch, if you are a lefty that happens not to like hot brass flying across your face. I bought one with money I got from billsnbills.com, We offer you the best Cake carts at very affordable prices with instant delivery to your home address. Also, for $400 (!) Problems NO, and IF I had one the FOREVER warranty covers everything. Capacity: 23+1. It is a short, light weapon that is easy to use and handle. The Ny Legal 9mm Carbine is also a semi-automatic weapon, which means that it is easy to fire. JavaScript is disabled. 13 Affordable 9mm Carbine Options (2023) - Gun Digest By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. To ensure that every shot is fast, accurate, and feels fantastic, a single-stage Mil-Spec trigger has been installed. The barrel is also threaded and the grips are compatible with M&P pistol palmwswell grip adaptors. $804.00 (Save up to 15%) Price $679.99 You can not have a rifle with a pistol grip in New . I have a Glock 17 with the 10 rounders, but when I move I can get the 17rd. If youve handled an AR-15 or AR-9 before, then this will be a familiar and comfortable feeling.
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